It would be nice if the old credit got fixed, but getting the new credit fixed first is the more important thing! After a month or so the RACs will be nearly 100% reflecting the new system.

Indeed it will, however the credit race by "total credit" will be flawed forever. lol Anyone one ever wonder what the leader board would be like without optimized apps?

It will remain the same. First the top people crunch Rosetta 24/7 and seconf the top people tend to have the top computers.
Tony are you suggesting that a P4 based system will beat a Kentfield based system or a Conroe Based System or a Power Mac Based System or an AMD Opty Based System? Or are you insinuating that a single machine (Not a Cray) can overcome a "Farm"of atl east 150 computers which the top crunchers (1&2) in total credits have, or a single P4 beat an 8 Mother Board Cluster....

You are being disingenious if you are suggesting that: the top teams will remain the same, the top crunchers by credit will remain the same and the top computers will remain the same ( that is until the first Woodcrests arrive). The only thing that will prevent that is if those that keep harping on the isue get the top teams, top crunchers and top computers to abandon the project.


BTW for those who like to play the "Boinc Stats Game": please refer to the day when XtremeSystems asked 3.9 million credits to be erased from its total at Rosetta. See what happened to the total credits for Rosetta that day.

It would be nice if the old credit got fixed, but getting the new credit fixed first is the more important thing! After a month or so the RACs will be nearly 100% reflecting the new system.

Indeed it will, however the credit race by "total credit" will be flawed forever. lol Anyone one ever wonder what the leader board would be like without optimized apps?

It will remain the same. First the top people crunch Rosetta 24/7 and seconf the top people tend to have the top computers. Tony are you suggesting that a P4 based system will beat a Kentfield based system or a Conroe Based System or a Power Mac Based System or an AMD Opty Based System?

I think he's insinuating that the leaderboard has more than 10 teams and 20 computers, and that my 8x 3.0GHz actually has done more total work than a single Athlon 64 X2 3800 that has been on for the same amount of time - contrary to what it tells us now, and will tell us 6 months from now if the total credit doesn't get fixed.

Hope that clarification helps.

Movieman from XS sounds like he's onboard with the idea of fixing this too, as the owner of the fastest machine on the project. Hopefully more people will see the value in it.

so you seti guys really think if they erase everyone points and put the new credit system we XS wont be at the top again by a huge margin like we are now?

i think the problem you fail to see we arent doing this for points, at least me, we are doing this because is this the most promissing project in comunity we are looking for answers and you guy complaining because you POS machine doesnt make points are diverting efforts to make a new credit system when things will remaing the same?

sorry for my english

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so you seti guys really think if they erase everyone points and put the new credit system we XS wont be at the top again by a huge margin like we are now?

i think the problem you fail to see we arent doing this for points, at least me, we are doing this because is this the most promissing project in comunity we are looking for answers and you guy complaining because you POS machine doesnt make points are diverting efforts to make a new credit system when things will remaing the same?

N1:)
Crunchers of XtremeSystems have participated in this project for long time.
They never said that the credit system shouldn't/needn't be changed. They said it should be changed anyway, at least. Actually fair system can prove their innocence. Also, everyone will be unpleasant if his/her credit would be erased without reasons.

But, it is you Leviathan18 that use the client:(

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so you seti guys really think if they erase everyone points and put the new credit system we XS wont be at the top again by a huge margin like we are now?

No. Read the thread.

If you're referring to my position on moving existing credits to another newly named project, and starting the credit race all over on a "fair credit system" (whatever that is/may be), then I have to say I'm undecided on the issue. At first I was all for it(but haven't ever said so in this thread), but then I remember my feelings against doing just that when seti switch to enhanced(fpops based credit system). I can see a fresh start here can be a good thing since the existence of third party Boinc Clients have ruined the credit race when measured by total credit. When measured by RAC it's not as important since time will level that back out. I was leaning in favor of a fresh start when I first read about it in this thread, but the more I think about it, I just don't know if that would be best. I guess I have more thinking to do on it.

The actual move to a fresh start would either require the project to make a new project (including new URL's for attachment, work requests, reporting, etc). This would mean many would suddenly be unable to get work as the old Urls wouldn't be any good. This IMO would seriously affect the amount of results returned and the project would lose many of those who just attach and forget it (the vast majority of users).

On the other hand, they could port the old credit to a different project and keep the existing urls, but then they'd have to coordinate with EVERY stats site to have them change the url they get the "stats dump" from. There are other concerns I'm sure, but it won't be easy either way. There are more concerns than I've just listed.

I agree, this thread seems to have gotten a bit off topic. I wish everyone would present there ideas about the new system, what they think might be best and to give examples. Not just complain and not offer up a solution, but if all some users have are complaints, then they should be able to voice there opinions as well, they're just not as productive in finding a solution.

so you seti guys really think if they erase everyone points and put the new credit system we XS wont be at the top again by a huge margin like we are now?

No. Read the thread.

I thought they were talking about me, but who knows. Might not be me, see sig below.

Notice how I didn't respond to what looked like flame bait, but stuck to a related topic?????

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I vote for just switching to assigning credit fairly, and not wasting valuable time and effort trying to rectify the past.

Once Rosetta starts assigning credit fairly, complaints about the past will fade away.

I wish everyone would present there ideas about the new system, what they think might be best and to give examples. Not just complain and not offer up a solution, but if all some users have are complaints, then they should be able to voice there opinions as well, they're just not as productive in finding a solution.

I offered my opinion (not a complaint) that it will be better if total credit gets fixed too and have clarified for the people who take this the wrong way. I can't offer a solution to fix it having no clue how they store total credit. However, knowing that they have a new measuring stick being developed I hope they can just apply that to past models that have already been submitted.

End of story. Whether it gets fixed or not I will continue to stick around.

Note:

CPDN's RAC's were really inflated across the board before their new credit system went into affect.

Note that CPDN had fixed credit per model since the very begining, IIRC. It was Einstein that somehow followed years later (SETI uses different method).

AMD_is_logical - what you say is logical :-)
The thing is - where is the assigning credit fairly method...

A server driven credit estimation a-la Einstein can be considered quite fair, IMO.
(we can't simple old & good one from CPDN due to quite numerous result types).

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I offered my opinion (not a complaint) that it will be better if total credit gets fixed too and have clarified for the people who take this the wrong way. I can't offer a solution to fix it having no clue how they store total credit. However, knowing that they have a new measuring stick being developed I hope they can just apply that to past models that have already been submitted.

End of story. Whether it gets fixed or not I will continue to stick around.

I think I didn't express myself clearly, sorry. You have offered up ideas, unlike some other posts before an after yours which didn't. Sorry, you thought I was talking about you. Keep on thinking up stuff. :)

tony

1)Moviemans idea is most relevant. Start afreash if we like and archive the old credit system and all its failings.

2)Make credit system fair and to be SEEN to be fair.

3)The complaints will fade with time and the SETI people will be left as a fainting squeek in the distance of their own blubberings in their 'primordial soup'. Ahhh that was terrible, but you guys really love causing trouble. you basically wreck your own project and then try and wreck ours. The whole world knows what you are trying to do... including the god dammit ET's.

4) The leader board would not really change if this was enacted retrospectively. What an absurd postulation. Almost as absurd as the avatar of its origimal author ;)

Maybe at XS we should ask our credits to be removed so that we can keep passing the other teams. Particularly some of the ones on this thread.

5)Comparisons to other Boinc projects and credit systems are totally irrelevent and the time thinking about this would be better used elsewhere.

Thats me for now....

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I love Mr. Smith. He keeps us safe from Alien Scum. He's probably good a Rosetta too.

The biggest problem I see with "zeroing out" everyone existing credits is that is becomes a "standard".

What happens on the next new version? What if someone does some great optimization on some existing code and it changes the relative credit/hour on different processors? Basically, any PERCEIVED change in someone's credits/hour is going to result in cries of "zero the credits out again".

Remember, the Rosetta software is constantly changing and evolving by design. You have to take that into account too. Some people may have had an advantage running one particular version at some given time frame, but that particular advantage may disappear with the next release.

The subject has been talked to death but it has brought out one thing that has needed to be said and said plainly: It appears to the members of the XtremeSystems team that there are people here that either are or were ascoiated with the SETI teams whose posts here seem to be trying to drive a wedge into the project.
Gentleman, We will NOT go away just because you want us too. Let me repeat that for the hearing impaired: We will NOT go away.
We came to this project because it looked to be a worthwhile use of our machinery, was managed well,had excellent goals and had communication from the people running the project.
There is the issue of the optimised clients. We and most of the top teams use them.
Is it a quest for higher points? NO! It is the awarding of points on a percentage FAIRLY between the different types of cpu's used. That's it, plain and simple. We will not change just because you want us to.
I suggested zeroing the points as a way to try and settle down the issues here.
Giving in to a vocal minority who contribute very little overall to the project in terms of WU crunched is a mistake and should not happen.
My feelings to the project managers are this, ignore all the rhetoric, the charts that are made to satisfy one mans distorted view of how things should be, all the comments..Just ignore them..Work from what your hearts and minds tell you is fair and go from there.
Thanks for your time,
Movieman

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Hi,

besides all the quarrel about the best credit system one thing is clear: the vast majority including the project staff is very greatful to xtremesystems for supporting this project so vigorously. That being said, it might happen that some people disagree with some of your posts from time to time. ;-)

In the end I'm sure we will find a good solution with which everyone can live. :-)

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besides all the quarrel about the best credit system one thing is clear: the vast majority including the project staff is very greatful to xtremesystems for supporting this project so vigorously. That being said, it might happen that some people disagree with some of your posts from time to time. ;-)

Quoted for truth.

Hi,

besides all the quarrel about the best credit system one thing is clear: the vast majority including the project staff is very greatful to xtremesystems for supporting this project so vigorously. That being said, it might happen that some people disagree with some of your posts from time to time. ;-)

In the end I'm sure we will find a good solution with which everyone can live. :-)

Your probably right on all counts. Keep in mind that the guys from XS with the exception of Jose and myself never posted here until the rantings about the optimised files started.
I will admit that the guys at XS are very vocal in their feelings and sometimes go "across the line" but it is the deep commitment to the project that brings out these feelings. If it was just a points thing, why would we care so?
Passion for the project brings passioniate responses when we see others whose comments appear to be made to drive that wedge I mentioned into the project.
Let us hope that what the final outcome is will be something that all can embrace without the bickering.
Thanks for your time,
Movieman

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I'll Second That!

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Why should the users who have been using stock managers, clients and stock-clocked machines have to start at 0? It's not wise to punish the innocent.

Why should the people taht spend their ressources in getting the new CPUS , the best motherboards and that have the knowhow on ovrclocking and optimizing cpu, memopry and ocerall performance be pinished?

Or are you suggesting that Rosetta be only oppened to low end machines?

No. Not in the least. Infact I'm not crazy about anyone's total credits being reset to zero in light of a new system. Other people's claims of overclaiming due to optimised BOINC managers is what brought on this new credit system to begin with.

As far as overclocked hardware is concerned, I say if you want to then do it. If actual work increases then great.

If I could afford it, I would have a 20 machine farm. As far as overclocking, I have my own personal reasons for not doing it that have nothing to do with this whole credit issue.

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