But Jose I did not bring up the issue, I just asked a question.

Jose never answers questions.

Saenger: the issue is closed so here we go again. This is my answer.



So again and with gusto:

David Baker, the head developer for this project stated that there is no backdating. That is Project Policy.

The moderators have deleted and moderated out people for less when it comes to the issue of backdating and the use of some fighting words like over-claims, etc)

If this post and others are allowed to stand by the moderators, they will show and leave no doubts that they have taken sides and that they have been unfair and inconsistent in their moderating actions..

It is their call to prove those who have argued that they have taken sides and that they are not consistent wrong.


If you don't want me to repeat this. Don't try to reopen the issue.

---

This and no other is the root from which a Tyrant springs; when he first appears he is a protector.”
Plato

I've been looking into some things, for the idea I suggested (an external stats site). It turns out you can get hosting for less than $10 U.S. per month, which includes PHP, MySQL, etc. I used to run a site with one such place (Site5.com), and I would highly recommend them.

As for offsetting the cost, perhaps someone could do what BoincStats does and sell advertising? Either that or the "tip jar" method could be used (Heck, once I start my new job, I could throw a few bucks in, per month!). Or even a combination!

The hard part would be finding someone (or multiple someones) with enough free time to make this work. True, the process is mostly automated, but there would have to be people to keep things running smoothly.

---

"There are obviously many things which we do not understand, and may never be able to."
Leela (From the Mac game "Marathon", released 1995)

I guess you never actually read the post.

So again and with gusto:

David baker, the head developer for this project stated that there is no backdating. That is Project Policy.

The moderators have deleted and moderated out people for less when it comes to the issue of backdating and the use of some fighting words like over-claims, etc)

If this post and others are allowed to stand by the moderators, they will show and leave no doubts that they have taken sides and that they have been unfair and inconsistent in their moderating actions..

It is their call to prove those who have argued that they have taken sides and that they are not consistent wrong.


You are perpetuating it .



So again and with gusto:

David baker, the head developer for this project stated that there is no backdating. That is Project Policy.

The moderators have deleted and moderated out people for less when it comes to the issue of backdating and the use of some fighting words like over-claims, etc)

If this post and others are allowed to stand by the moderators, they will show and leave no doubts that they have taken sides and that they have been unfair and inconsistent in their moderating actions..

It is their call to prove those who have argued that they have taken sides and that they are not consistent wrong.


If you don't want me to repeat this. Don't try to reopen the issue.

If you don't want me to repeat this. Don't try to reopen the issue.

But Jose I did not bring up the issue, I just asked a question.

---

This and no other is the root from which a Tyrant springs; when he first appears he is a protector.”
Plato

Saenger: the issue is closed so here we go again. This is my answer.

This "ending of any discussion" will show the total bias of the moderators and the absolute surrender to you and your group.
The "letting go" of a polite discussion will show their impartiality.

I've been looking into some things, for the idea I suggested (an external stats site). It turns out you can get hosting for less than $10 U.S. per month, which includes PHP, MySQL, etc. I used to run a site with one such place (Site5.com), and I would highly recommend them.

As for offsetting the cost, perhaps someone could do what BoincStats does and sell advertising? Either that or the "tip jar" method could be used (Heck, once I start my new job, I could throw a few bucks in, per month!). Or even a combination!

The hard part would be finding someone (or multiple someones) with enough free time to make this work. True, the process is mostly automated, but there would have to be people to keep things running smoothly.

I would be slightly harder than you say since knowing where and how to cut the pre new credit system since although there was a date when it was itroduced it was also an overlap of new task (wu) and old method tasks. If you really wanted to you could do it. If you choose a cut off date then you just get the snapshot of stats for that date and take it away from todays then go from there. Me I'm not bothered.

---

Team mauisun.org

Saenger: the issue is closed so here we go again. This is my answer.

This "ending of any discussion" will show the total bias of the moderators and the absolute surrender to you and your group.
The "letting go" of a polite discussion will show their impartiality.

That is where you are wrong: It will show that their previous actions were not fair. If the moderators don't follow the precedents they established then; they will loose credibility as they will show their previous actions were capricious.

I don't want to believe the moderator were capricious in their -past moderating. Do you?

Also Saenger: I don't speak for a group. I speak for myself.

So lets see :



So again and with gusto:

David Baker, the head developer for this project stated that there is no backdating. That is Project Policy.

The moderators have deleted and moderated out people for less when it comes to the issue of backdating and the use of some fighting words like over-claims, etc)

If this post and others are allowed to stand by the moderators, they will show and leave no doubts that they have taken sides and that they have been unfair and inconsistent in their moderating actions..

It is their call to prove those who have argued that they have taken sides and that they are not consistent wrong.


If you don't want me to repeat this. Don't try to reopen the issue.

---

This and no other is the root from which a Tyrant springs; when he first appears he is a protector.”
Plato

I've been looking into some things, for the idea I suggested (an external stats site). It turns out you can get hosting for less than $10 U.S. per month, which includes PHP, MySQL, etc. I used to run a site with one such place (Site5.com), and I would highly recommend them.

As for offsetting the cost, perhaps someone could do what BoincStats does and sell advertising? Either that or the "tip jar" method could be used (Heck, once I start my new job, I could throw a few bucks in, per month!). Or even a combination!

The hard part would be finding someone (or multiple someones) with enough free time to make this work. True, the process is mostly automated, but there would have to be people to keep things running smoothly.

I would be slightly harder than you say since knowing where and how to cut the pre new credit system since although there was a date when it was itroduced it was also an overlap of new task (wu) and old method tasks. If you really wanted to you could do it. If you choose a cut off date then you just get the snapshot of stats for that date and take it away from todays then go from there. Me I'm not bothered.

I for one would like to see that new and improved stats board working. I would also like to see how many teams (specially those involved in the vault) would participate in it.

:)

---

This and no other is the root from which a Tyrant springs; when he first appears he is a protector.”
Plato

I would be slightly harder than you say since knowing where and how to cut the pre new credit system since although there was a date when it was itroduced it was also an overlap of new task (wu) and old method tasks. If you really wanted to you could do it. If you choose a cut off date then you just get the snapshot of stats for that date and take it away from todays then go from there. Me I'm not bothered.

True. It still wouldn't go all the way back to the beginning. But there are a lot of people who would like to go back to February. This would give them their opportunity, while still giving those that don't want backdating the official, unchanged stats. Sort of a "win-win" scenario.

---

"There are obviously many things which we do not understand, and may never be able to."
Leela (From the Mac game "Marathon", released 1995)

I would be slightly harder than you say since knowing where and how to cut the pre new credit system since although there was a date when it was itroduced it was also an overlap of new task (wu) and old method tasks. If you really wanted to you could do it. If you choose a cut off date then you just get the snapshot of stats for that date and take it away from todays then go from there. Me I'm not bothered.

True. It still wouldn't go all the way back to the beginning. But there are a lot of people who would like to go back to February. This would give them their opportunity, while still giving those that don't want backdating the official, unchanged stats. Sort of a "win-win" scenario.

What win-win scenario?

Official Stats are that: official. By their nature they are the ones that are to be referenced when history is reviewed. Un-official stats while enjoyable to some people that want to rewrite history are akin to the infamous "*" that followed Roger Maris for eons.

Unofficial stats are like what you wish but you could not have because you didn't do. They are the stuff dreams and wishful thinking is made .

---

This and no other is the root from which a Tyrant springs; when he first appears he is a protector.”
Plato

I don't know if I'd agree that it's "wishful thinking". Let me explain this way:

Okay, let's say X and Y work mowing lawns.

X works 6 hours and mows 3 lawns.
Y works 5 hours and mows 4 lawns.

You can say that X worked harder than Y, because he worked for more hours. You would be correct.
You can also say that Y worked harder than X, because he did more lawns. That is also correct.

Basically, either answer can be correct, depending on which method is used to measure it.

Edit: Sorry, transposed two numbers, which probably really confused my explanation!

---

"There are obviously many things which we do not understand, and may never be able to."
Leela (From the Mac game "Marathon", released 1995)

I would be slightly harder than you say since knowing where and how to cut the pre new credit system since although there was a date when it was itroduced it was also an overlap of new task (wu) and old method tasks. If you really wanted to you could do it. If you choose a cut off date then you just get the snapshot of stats for that date and take it away from todays then go from there. Me I'm not bothered.

True. It still wouldn't go all the way back to the beginning. But there are a lot of people who would like to go back to February. This would give them their opportunity, while still giving those that don't want backdating the official, unchanged stats. Sort of a "win-win" scenario.

The problm with that is it coul not use the current system of credit.
1) We do not know what the average run length and credit award is for each particular task type
2) The devs would need to give us the information (if they still have it)
3) as 1) but more so because we now use a running average.

It much easier just to take a cut of point 're-zero' from there for an external stats site.

---

Team mauisun.org

The problm with that is it coul not use the current system of credit.
1) We do not know what the average run length and credit award is for each particular task type
2) The devs would need to give us the information (if they still have it)
3) as 1) but more so because we now use a running average.

It much easier just to take a cut of point 're-zero' from there for an external stats site.

True. Plus, I think re-zeroing would be less error-prone (with the rolling average). From a technical standpoint, I would prefer it. I'm just not sure it would be as popular, since many people would probably not like restarting from zero. Of course, if we used the initial roll-out of the new system as the cutoff, I guess it wouldn't be restarting from zero...

See the part that concerns me is that the stats are supposed to create healthy competition, which then drives up production. I'm just not sure which one would be better, in that regard. I would assume that people would prefer to "lose" as little as possible, but I could be mistaken.

---

"There are obviously many things which we do not understand, and may never be able to."
Leela (From the Mac game "Marathon", released 1995)

I think that the biggest issue a lot of people have with backdating the credit system is not in what the numbers would show but in that it would signal yet another "giving in" to the same people that pushed the "cross BOINC parity" issue. For myself, I could care less. The work I did stands on it's own no matter what point value is given to it.
I also think many here would be quite shocked to see the outcome of backdating.
What they tend to forget is that at least in the case of XS, up until mid April all we were using was the stock boinc client.
All that would change for us would be any points from mid April to the end of August.
Do you really think that would change the standings as far as XS is concerned?
I don't think so. XS would still be in first place, just the numbers would be lower but then again so would FreeDC's, the Dutch Power Cows and I expect many others.

---

Author Message
David Kim
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Message 24821 - Posted 25 Aug 2006 6:17:37 UTC
THERE WILL BE NO BACKDATING. THE INFORMATION TO DO SO NO LONGER EXISTS AND EVEN IF IT DID, IT WOULD BE INACCURATE BECAUSE OF HOST MERGING AND LOST DATA DUE TO SERVER ISSUES.

ID: 24821 | Rating: 0 | rate: / - [Reply to this post]

Ethan
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Message 24111 - Posted 21 Aug 2006 16:13:09 UTC
The thread was locked, please respect that. Messages will be deleted from this post on (I don't feel it necessary to delete 10 messages that snuck in while I was in bed).

You're free to hypothesize how things could be done, but please remember this is no longer an issue, it's been decided, and the only thing that will do anything to past scores would be a meteor hitting Seattle :)

My bold...

Hypothetically I`m not against it or for it or will even give a view at present, cos according to the above it is a closed matter, I will not stop people dreaming or talking though.

Sorry Jose but speech must be allowed on both sides if it clearly has not been disallowed. I looked it up and the above is what I found.

---

Not all Czech`s bounce but I`d like to try with Barbar ;-)

Make no mistake This IS the TEDDIES TEAM.

It much easier just to take a cut of point 're-zero' from there for an external stats site.

It is even easier and fairer to Re zero from a date certain ; Archive the standings up to that point for historical purposes and start records from that moment on... So you have Rosetta 1 Stats and the Rosetta 2 Stats.

Man if this doesn't get me roasted, tar and feathered, drawn and quartered nothing will.

Well if Galileo recanted at the thought of the flames, I can argue my evil twin wrote this :) .

---

This and no other is the root from which a Tyrant springs; when he first appears he is a protector.”
Plato

Author Message
David Kim
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Message 24821 - Posted 25 Aug 2006 6:17:37 UTC
THERE WILL BE NO BACKDATING. THE INFORMATION TO DO SO NO LONGER EXISTS AND EVEN IF IT DID, IT WOULD BE INACCURATE BECAUSE OF HOST MERGING AND LOST DATA DUE TO SERVER ISSUES.

ID: 24821 | Rating: 0 | rate: / - [Reply to this post]

Ethan
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Message 24111 - Posted 21 Aug 2006 16:13:09 UTC
The thread was locked, please respect that. Messages will be deleted from this post on (I don't feel it necessary to delete 10 messages that snuck in while I was in bed).

You're free to hypothesize how things could be done, but please remember this is no longer an issue, it's been decided, and the only thing that will do anything to past scores would be a meteor hitting Seattle :)

My bold...

Hypothetically I`m not against it or for it or will even give a view at present, cos according to the above it is a closed matter, I will not stop people dreaming or talking though.

Sorry Jose but speech must be allowed on both sides if it clearly has not been disallowed. I looked it up and the above is what I found.

Man, are you telling me you keep historical records?

---

This and no other is the root from which a Tyrant springs; when he first appears he is a protector.”
Plato

True. Plus, I think re-zeroing would be less error-prone (with the rolling average). From a technical standpoint, I would prefer it. I'm just not sure it would be as popular, since many people would probably not like restarting from zero.

As Saint Thomas Moore once said : Blessed are those who stick their necks out , as they will have it chopped off


See the part that concerns me is that the stats are supposed to create healthy competition, which then drives up production. [/quote]

Where have you been when the people of XtremeSystems, Teddies , The DPCs and others ahve been arguing that to be told by the zealots that [b]science and only science was important?

---

This and no other is the root from which a Tyrant springs; when he first appears he is a protector.”
Plato

No just site search "backdating"...

As far as the project admin goes " There will be NO backdating" nothing will change save that meteor that`s aimed right for us...;-)

If people want to talk hypothetically it is their right to do so, it`s a two way street.

In your former self Jose, the great thinker, you argued for a system of scoring that was not Boinc bound....I thought you correct then and still do. You put your points succinctly and with great vision and made me look and think. I know where the old Jose would have taken the next step.

---

Not all Czech`s bounce but I`d like to try with Barbar ;-)

Make no mistake This IS the TEDDIES TEAM.

I think that the biggest issue a lot of people have with backdating the credit system is not in what the numbers would show but in that it would signal yet another "giving in" to the same people that pushed the "cross BOINC parity" issue. For myself, I could care less. The work I did stands on it's own no matter what point value is given to it.
I also think many here would be quite shocked to see the outcome of backdating.
What they tend to forget is that at least in the case of XS, up until mid April all we were using was the stock boinc client.
All that would change for us would be any points from mid April to the end of August.
Do you really think that would change the standings as far as XS is concerned?
I don't think so. XS would still be in first place, just the numbers would be lower but then again so would FreeDC's, the Dutch Power Cows and I expect many others.

Dave what will happen is what is happening at WCG BOINC where we are using the stock client and we are starting our way up with very impressive numbers ... People who don't believe this should see the stats we have accumulated in less than 3 weeks :)

Or they Should see Diablo's performance at Riesel Sieve Boinc?

Or XS Leiden Team's

:)

---

This and no other is the root from which a Tyrant springs; when he first appears he is a protector.”
Plato

Author Message
David Kim
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Joined: Jul 1, 2005
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Message 24821 - Posted 25 Aug 2006 6:17:37 UTC
THERE WILL BE NO BACKDATING. THE INFORMATION TO DO SO NO LONGER EXISTS AND EVEN IF IT DID, IT WOULD BE INACCURATE BECAUSE OF HOST MERGING AND LOST DATA DUE TO SERVER ISSUES.

ID: 24821 | Rating: 0 | rate: / - [Reply to this post]

compare Davids' post above to this one from the Ralph board

17) Message boards : : Current tests : New crediting system
Posted 35 days ago by dekim
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I can't sway myself from thinking that we have the opportunity to make the credit system fairly accurate based entirely on work done. I'm fairly sure everyone agrees credit should be based on work done. We have the opportunity to back date this to make the credit system consistent and fair throughout. If you've crunched more than me, you'll have more credit than me. If not, you won't. We know that's not the case at the moment, and I don't see how anyone can logically be against that.

Precisely, very well said.

Ditto, very well said!

HERE IS THE CURRENT PLAN FOR ROSETTA@HOME

FIRST NOTE: The old system will still be in place and the exported stats will still be from the old system for now. We are just going to include new columns on the leader board lists for the new work based credits. This way people can compare the two, and there will finally be a ranking based on actual work.

For the work based columns, I will determine the actual work done from our archives which dates back to about February. Credit before February will be from the old system. So your total credit will include claimed credit before February plus your work based credit.

The hope is to eventually phase out the old system.